tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post2633862735379076380..comments2024-02-29T03:34:23.190-05:00Comments on Who Were the Sea Peoples?: In Ancapistan, if you get shot, it was voluntarygcallahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10065877215969589482noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-85265488125744363542014-12-04T16:24:05.203-05:002014-12-04T16:24:05.203-05:00"…my point has ALWAYS been that Rothbardians ..."…my point has ALWAYS been that Rothbardians will NEVER achieve their goal since it is self-contradictory nonsense…"<br /><br />Could you explain what you mean by this bit?Samson Corwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10148822362930969284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-22853049464869094972014-09-05T06:11:23.938-04:002014-09-05T06:11:23.938-04:00How often do you suppose that that happens?How often do you suppose that that happens?Samson Corwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10148822362930969284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-50374913258278110862014-09-04T09:55:38.223-04:002014-09-04T09:55:38.223-04:00Speaking of ideology ... a revealing exchange with...Speaking of ideology ... a revealing exchange with an ancap: http://consultingbyrpm.com/blog/2014/09/thoughts-on-europe.html#comment-878099 Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-15307072112365379382014-09-03T13:37:40.961-04:002014-09-03T13:37:40.961-04:00"its claim on tax money (being applied to peo..."its claim on tax money (being applied to people who didn't voluntarily agree to pay them) is also illegal"<br /><br />Well it's obviously not illegal. What you mean is you think it's not justified.Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-26297169497701975662014-09-03T10:33:52.983-04:002014-09-03T10:33:52.983-04:00""First of all Gene, c'mon, you can&...""First of all Gene, c'mon, you can't congratulate yourself that the people who already think an-cap is stupid, believe you to be zinging me."<br /><br />And look, Bob, what I pointed out is that they UNDERSTOOD what I am saying just fine, not that they thought I was "zinging" you: once again, ideology forced you to RE-INTERPRET what I was saying and cast it into an easily dismissed fallacy.gcallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065877215969589482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-485906659348398752014-09-03T09:30:49.208-04:002014-09-03T09:30:49.208-04:00Rob, if you want a minimal government you are not ...Rob, if you want a minimal government you are not an ancap. They see you as the enemy in fact. I invite you to defend that position at Murphy's blog and see what happens. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-63754599914857680112014-09-03T09:23:23.767-04:002014-09-03T09:23:23.767-04:00I was right about the half dozen thing, wasn't...I was right about the half dozen thing, wasn't I?<br />Murphy, as I explained above, how the rules get made would change, so the rules would change. Instead of trials within our current courts system we might get roving gangs carrying out "justice" like drug cartels or the mafia in Sicily. But in either case we would have someone enforcing something. So Gene can be right about cartels AND about the illusory nature of your private law claims. There is no contradiction, kontradiction, qontradiction or whatever rhetorical term you dream up to falsely imply inconsistency. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-16445984987034970842014-09-03T09:03:41.168-04:002014-09-03T09:03:41.168-04:00I think most ancaps hold the view that the state c...I think most ancaps hold the view that the state came by its wealth illegally and its claim on tax money (being applied to people who didn't voluntarily agree to pay them) is also illegal.robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682517711551179057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-86582744671855013882014-09-03T03:41:43.580-04:002014-09-03T03:41:43.580-04:00Maybe the Ancaps should bear in mind the very hist...Maybe the Ancaps should bear in mind the very historical origin on the modern State in Europe. After the fall of the roman empire, all government collapsed, and you had a state of nature, with rich people, strong people, and the vast majority of poor peasants. And of course, civilization quite collapsed also, but the mailn casualty was law and order.<br /><br />What happened ? The small-property owners, named the vassi, gathered around the powerful ones, called the seniores, and made contracts, basically exchanging defense for services. <br /><br />As the great french law professor, Maurice Hauriou, explained, at that time, everything was private.<br /><br />« Quelle était la situation de la France au Xème siècle ? Ce n'était qu'une immense chose privée. Non seulement toutes les terres étaient toutes privées (…) mais les anciens droits régaliens de l'Etat romain, les droits de justice, police, finances, monnaies, etc. étaient possédées à titre privé par le seigneur dans sa seigneurie ». (in Précis de droit constitutionnel, 2è ed, 1930, pp. 18-19).<br /><br />There was no common good, no public services. Since it was far from satisfying, those free landlords step by step, created a common good over the private goods, by the mean of first choosing a king, Hugues Capet. and the modern State gradually emerged out of Ancapistan, mostly willingly (since they all agreed in a fashion to be killed voluntarily).<br /><br />As Hauriou explained, that superposition of a common good over the private goods didn't mean that the community was superior to the individual, but that the individual good is only feasible through a community.<br /><br />In the words of Pope Leo XIII, in Rerum Novarum (number 50) :<br /><br />“The consciousness of his own weakness urges man to call in aid from without. We read in the pages of holy Writ: "It is better that two should be together than one; for they have the advantage of their society. If one fall he shall be supported by the other. Woe to him that is alone, for when he falleth he hath none to lift him up." And further: "A brother that is helped by his brother is like a strong city." It is this natural impulse which binds men together in civil society; and it is likewise this which leads them to join together in associations which are, it is true, lesser and not independent societies, but, nevertheless, real societies.”Olivier Braunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05755707079233685981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-12010342085024344592014-09-03T03:14:52.041-04:002014-09-03T03:14:52.041-04:00"First of all Gene, c'mon, you can't ..."First of all Gene, c'mon, you can't congratulate yourself that the people who already think an-cap is stupid, believe you to be zinging me. If I asked Major Freedom, Tom Woods, and Stephan Kinsella, they would say I was destroying you..."<br /><br />Right, I "cherry-picked" among the 99.99% of the world who understand ancap is nonsense, while you cherry-pick among the .01% who are true believers, and that is equally weighty evidence.<br /><br />"But we know that's not true: Elsewhere you have told us that if the Rothbardians ever achieved their goal, we would have drug cartels shooting people in the streets, etc."<br /><br />Again, an ideology blocking your understanding of what I am saying. I never said "IF Rothbardians ever achieved their goal": no, my point has ALWAYS been that Rothbardians will NEVER achieve their goal since it is self-contradictory nonsense, but the attempt would be likely to produce gang violence and civil war.<br /><br />"while other times you call your Poconos community a "private law" one and say it is more intrusive than the "statist" neighborhoods in which you've lived, and then other times you seem to be suggesting that a private-law Ancapistan community is a logical impossibility."<br /><br />Called it that in quotes, Bobby M.<br /><br />"I'm not crazy or dogmatic for thinking the above positions are confusing."<br /><br />No, what ideology does is to re-interpret what I've said in the above fashion, so that it SEEMS confusing, andthe ideology can be preserved.<br />So, yes, your INTERPRETATIONS of what I've said are confusing, but they have little to do with what I've said: they are the way ideology has forced you to re-interpret what I've said so it seems contradictory. Really.gcallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065877215969589482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-59729264730971888962014-09-03T01:26:36.987-04:002014-09-03T01:26:36.987-04:00At this point I'm ready for a lobotomy, even i...At this point I'm ready for a lobotomy, even if it is paid for with stolen taxpayer money...<br /><br />First of all Gene, c'mon, you can't congratulate yourself that the people who already think an-cap is stupid, believe you to be zinging me. If I asked Major Freedom, Tom Woods, and Stephan Kinsella, they would say I was destroying you in these comments and that I should stop wasting my time. (Well no, MF wouldn't say that, but you get my point.)<br /><br />OK, it now seems like you're saying the very idea that someone could live in an an-cap community is literally impossible. But we know that's not true: Elsewhere you have told us that if the Rothbardians ever achieved their goal, we would have drug cartels shooting people in the streets, etc.<br /><br />Now you and I *disagree* about what would happen if, say, 95% of the American population suddenly thought I was a genius and wanted to implement the spirit of "Chaos Theory." I think such-and-such will happen, whereas you think it will be Mexican drug cartels moving in and shooting people, and/or the Chinese taking over.<br /><br />Now then, as a separate matter, you have been telling us that your Poconos "private law" community sheds empirical evidence on whose vision is right, and whose is wrong--have you not?<br /><br />And so I'm saying that can't possibly be a valid move, since that is occurring within the U.S. legal system etc. If I tried to point to the Poconos and say, "Where are the Mexican drug cartels Gene that you warned about?" you would laugh at me.<br /><br />I am not here accusing you of a glaring contradiction, I'm asking you to refine exactly what your various objections have been, over the last few years. Sometimes you say that Ancapistan would mean drug cartels shooting each other up, and rich people buying legal verdicts, while other times you call your Poconos community a "private law" one and say it is more intrusive than the "statist" neighborhoods in which you've lived, and then other times you seem to be suggesting that a private-law Ancapistan community is a logical impossibility.<br /><br />I'm not crazy or dogmatic for thinking the above positions are confusing.Bob Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001108408649311528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-47384597165446758062014-09-03T00:40:03.183-04:002014-09-03T00:40:03.183-04:00"I doubt if in an ancap society you would hav..."I doubt if in an ancap society you would have 2 million Americans in jail for example."<br /><br />Why do you doubt it? Can you propose any concrete actions by which the prison population could be reduced? <br /><br />No. <br /><br />All you can say is "I doubt that in fairy tale land there would be as many people in prison". <br /><br />Whilst you guys make up stories about how things may or may not be in fantasy land, the real world keeps spinning, screwing with people's real lives.Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-55440002788009387762014-09-03T00:35:30.475-04:002014-09-03T00:35:30.475-04:00"more or less respect for the agreed set of r..."more or less respect for the agreed set of rules governing who owns what"<br /><br />So you respect the generally agreed idea that the public, or the state, owns a whole bunch of things, including tax money?Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-75842414080386610492014-09-02T23:54:46.397-04:002014-09-02T23:54:46.397-04:00Mr.
Yes, but remember the rules which ancaps lik...Mr.<br /><br />Yes, but remember the rules which ancaps like are pretty minimal - more or less respect for the agreed set of rules governing who owns what. And the "usual means" is probably not correct - I doubt if in an ancap society you would have 2 million Americans in jail for example. <br /><br />I agree that many ancaps oversimplify the question of "who owns what" - but assuming it is possible (and I believe it is) to find enough agreement on that issue to underwrite a stable society then I believe a "minimal government" society is possible.robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682517711551179057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-89855966349611623082014-09-02T23:47:05.190-04:002014-09-02T23:47:05.190-04:00Gene,
I was really just trying to rephrase your v...Gene,<br /><br />I was really just trying to rephrase your views in a,light-heated way - and I apologize for annoying you - that was not my intent.<br /><br />I will try and avoid that in future as I do enjoy your blog and appreciate that you take the time to respond to my comments.robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682517711551179057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-23028709957742899302014-09-02T23:04:54.251-04:002014-09-02T23:04:54.251-04:00Gene, do you think that left anarchists who talk a...Gene, do you think that left anarchists who talk about their imagined "workers' administrations" suffer from an illusion similar to anarcho-capitalists?Samson Corwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10148822362930969284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-71812856422399672702014-09-02T22:59:25.556-04:002014-09-02T22:59:25.556-04:00You don't have to be hardened thief or an anar...<i>You don't have to be hardened thief or an anarcho-communist to disagree with the ancap ideology and its proposed laws, given that the overwhelming majority of the population do not agree with the ancap ideology and its proposed laws.</i><br /><br />In rob's defense, the majority of the population probably hasn't even heard of anarcho-capitalism. Or anarcho-communism, for that matter.Samson Corwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10148822362930969284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-34652359985377772112014-09-02T22:41:33.824-04:002014-09-02T22:41:33.824-04:00...your point was to show that the private communi...<i>...your point was to show that the private community you just moved into, was an example of a state community of public law?</i><br /><br />The community is only "private" in the context of a large public. If it was by itself (as Ancapistan would be), then there wouldn't be anything for it to be "private" in relation to.Samson Corwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10148822362930969284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-16011564772222726552014-09-02T22:41:24.103-04:002014-09-02T22:41:24.103-04:00Gene, at this point it would be easier to explain ...Gene, at this point it would be easier to explain the difference between six and a half-dozen. You won't convince him, but it's shorter to type. Ken Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207803092348071005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-15663023758775699302014-09-02T22:32:51.777-04:002014-09-02T22:32:51.777-04:00"...your point was to show that the private c..."...your point was to show that the private community you just moved into, was an example of a state community of public law?"<br /><br />Bob, the whole point is Rob only THINKS there is a significant difference between his "private" community and the "public" one: that's why in the first post in this series I kept putting "private" in quotes! I am not CONTRASTING them: I am showing the distinction is nonsense. <br /><br />Ken B. gets the point just fine, Samson gets it, Mr. gets it. They are not brighter than you, but thing is, you HAVE to keep misunderstanding it, because the second you understand it... bye-bye ancap. The "moves" being pulled aren't by me: they are being pulled by an ideology attempting to sustain itself. That's the way ideologies work: their filter keeps distorting any message that causes ideological dissonance, so you literally cannot read an argument that would undermine the ideology in the way it was intended.gcallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065877215969589482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-76451334457662041562014-09-02T22:14:09.258-04:002014-09-02T22:14:09.258-04:00Gene wrote:
You keep saying that you completely u...Gene wrote:<br /><br /><i>You keep saying that you completely understand my posts, yet your comments don't show it: my post shows there is no such thing as an "ancap community." "private" government is an illusion: there is just government.</i><br /><br />OK, so in this very post Gene, when you wrote:<br /><i>But they have different political views, so while George picks the small town of Statesburg, Rob chooses to move to the private community of Ancapsville.</i><br />...your point was to show that the private community you just moved into, was an example of a state community of public law?<br /><br />You are being confusing. On the one hand, you want to contrast your Poconos "private law" community with the "statist" (the term you used, albeit tongue-in-cheek) communities elsewhere, and you want to show Rothbardians that a private law community can be more busybodyish or nosy or whatever, than a public law community.<br /><br />But then when I say, "So a private law community can exist?" you once again accuse me of misreading you.<br /><br />When you pull moves like that, you shouldn't be surprised that people who initially disagree with you, aren't convinced.<br />Bob Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001108408649311528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-3332378571826465772014-09-02T21:56:55.142-04:002014-09-02T21:56:55.142-04:00"a libertarian society (with no state) "..."a libertarian society (with no state) "<br /><br />The ideal society described by ancaps is not really a stateless society. It is a state which is based on the rules which ancaps like, which are enforced by all of the usual means.<br /><br />Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-76790865372777272312014-09-02T21:55:15.127-04:002014-09-02T21:55:15.127-04:00Rob I have already showed you how the two sentence...Rob I have already showed you how the two sentences I wrote were NOTHING like the two sentences you wrote except sharing a few words.<br /><br />And neither if them had anything to do with what a libertarian society will "lead" to: as it will never exist, it won't ever lead to anything.<br /><br />I'm about to stop posting this rob: you've gotten away with this nonsense this long because you've been a welcome regular, but I'm losing patience with your re-writing what I say and asking me to defend a piece of nonsense YOU made up. gcallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065877215969589482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-10741140846955682232014-09-02T21:48:34.310-04:002014-09-02T21:48:34.310-04:00So apart from the definitional issue of what a sta...So apart from the definitional issue of what a stateless society should be called my parody of your view on what "libertarianism" will lead to is accurate. robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682517711551179057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7225373.post-87315412543740934422014-09-02T21:24:22.516-04:002014-09-02T21:24:22.516-04:00…we have no historical example of a functioning pr...<i>…we have no historical example of a functioning private-law community…</i><br /><br />It's impossible for dry water to even have real world examples.Samson Corwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10148822362930969284noreply@blogger.com