Suicide amongst the "trans-gendered"
The attempted suicide rate is enormous.
The politically correct explanation is that "discrimination" explains this high suicide rate.
Does anyone really think that men who want to be women or vice-versa really face harsher discrimination than, say, did African-Americans in the American South up until the last few decades? And did 40% of African-Americans try to commit suicide as a result of that extremely harsh regime of discrimination they experienced?
No, folks, the explanation for this high suicide rate is quite obvious, and staring us in the face.
No Christian (or Buddhist, etc.) should hate someone who is suffering confusion about who they are. We should help them through their confusion.
The politically correct attitude has nothing to do with helping these people. Progressives are using these troubled people as a battering ram against all traditional religions.
The politically correct explanation is that "discrimination" explains this high suicide rate.
Does anyone really think that men who want to be women or vice-versa really face harsher discrimination than, say, did African-Americans in the American South up until the last few decades? And did 40% of African-Americans try to commit suicide as a result of that extremely harsh regime of discrimination they experienced?
No, folks, the explanation for this high suicide rate is quite obvious, and staring us in the face.
No Christian (or Buddhist, etc.) should hate someone who is suffering confusion about who they are. We should help them through their confusion.
The politically correct attitude has nothing to do with helping these people. Progressives are using these troubled people as a battering ram against all traditional religions.
One of the main findings of the survey:
ReplyDelete"Based on prior
research and the findings of this report, we find that
mental health factors and experiences of harassment,
discrimination, violence and rejection may interact to
produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in
transgender and gender non-conforming individuals"
Seems quite likely to be accurate to me.
Right rob. That is why 40% of blacks under apartheid in South Africa, or 40% of slaves in the ante-bellum south, tried to kill themselves!
DeleteOops, they didn't?! So two possibilities:
1) Trans individuals in the US are facing a *harsher* regime that SA apartheid or US slavery; or
2) The explanation is just the one ideologues desperately WANT to be true.
Acting as devil's advocate, here, is it not possible that it's the sense of isolation they get in their own communities (fellow students, colleagues, etc.) that was not experienced by e.g American slaves or blacks under apartheid? They were under terrible conditions, but they surely saw their fellow sufferers as their community, and the slave owners/whites as "other", and within their community they at least had a chance at being valued and accepted.
DeleteIsolation? I was the only logical regular at Murphy's blog for years. I'm still alive.
DeleteYou might fool Gene with that, but not me rob! The para you quote says it's either psychological factors or other factors. That really is pretty convincing. Gene is either over 50 or not. I am either over 6 ft, or not.
DeleteBut it's a leading formulation. Like either Tom Knapp misunderstood a recent post, or not. That's either a deliberate rhetorical ploy, or something else.
I didn't read the report but I took that snippet to mean that transgender people
Delete1) are more likely to have mental health problems than others
2) are more likely to experience harassment.
3) When these 2 things are combined it leads to a higher levels of attempted suicide compared to groups that suffer either only 1 or 2 , as well as those who suffer neither.
The implication of Gene's post is that higher attempted suicide rate among transgender people is caused exclusively (or at least, mainly) by 1) and not 2). I do not think that claim will stand up to much scrutiny.
"I didn't read the report..."
DeleteOf course not!
"The implication of Gene's post is that higher attempted suicide rate among transgender people is caused exclusively..."
Sure rob. And the "implication" of your comment is that you will be sending me a large check soon.
"or at least, mainly"
A bit more like it.
"I do not think that claim will stand up to much scrutiny."
Let me correct that: I *wish* that claim would not stand up to scrutiny.
I have offered a *great* reason to think 1 and not 2 is the prime factor: that rates of attempted suicide is phenomenally higher than in groups facing *much* worse conditions. In fact, I have looked it up: the rate of successful suicide among slaves in the US was less than .001% / year. If there was a 95% survival rate on attempts, that gives us .02% of the population attempting suicide per year. Times 50, that gives us an attempted suicide rate of less than 1% over a lifetime.
1% for slaves versus *40%* for the transgendered!
So, yes, my claim stands up to a whole ton of scrutiny!
A report claims that A and B combined lead to a higher rate of C than A or B alone.
DeleteGene finds a group with mainly B . that has a low rate of C.
Gene claims this proves that it must be A that mainly leads to high rates of C.
rob scratches his head.
The victim died from a combination of "gunshot wounds and exposure to the 40 degree outdoor temperature."
DeleteWhich was more important? Well, we find 95% of people with these sorts of gunshot wounds die, but only 5 % of people with similar exposure die. We conclude the gunshot wounds were the more important factor.
rob scratches his head.
We conclude rob ain't that sharp!
I'm not claiming to be sharp - just interested in basic logic.
DeleteIf I claim that people with both gunshot wounds and exposure die more frequently than people with only one or the other then you can't disprove that claim by pointing to low death rates of people who have only exposure - that is actually consistent with my claim, isn't it ?
"We conclude that rob ain't that sharp."
DeleteHe scratches his head, but his head doesn't scratch him.
"If I claim that people with both gunshot wounds and exposure die more frequently than people with only one or the other then you can't disprove that claim by pointing to low death rates of people who have only exposure..."
DeleteYou are "interested" in basic logic, but kind of like a South Sea Islander is "interested" in the helicopter flying over head: it is a strange, exotic object you don't understand!
NO ONE tried to refute the claim that both mental illness and harsh social conditions can contribute to suicide. I SPECIFICALLY said I was not contending that both aren't a factor. I am just trying to sort out which is the MORE IMPORTANT factor.
Which we can do with just the experiment I offered.
Which would all be fine if this sub-thread didn't start with me quoting from the paper:
Delete"Based on prior research and the findings of this report, we find that mental health factors and experiences of harassment, discrimination, violence and rejection MAY INTERACT to produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in
transgender and gender non-conforming individuals"
My (only) point after your initial response to my comment has been to point out that quoting low guesstimates of slave suicide rates does actually undermine the claim made in the paper that 2 factors combined may lead to the results the paper claims.
Neither my initial comment nor any of my followup comments have made any reference to the issue of which of the 2 factors involved are the most important (its only you that have mentioned that).
Anyway, I see that you are not really interested in understanding or acknowledging this basic (and possibly trivial) point, and that you have now resorted to misrepresenting the discussion and insults, so I will stop now.
"My (only) point after your initial response to my comment has been to point out that quoting low guesstimates of slave suicide rates does actually undermine the claim made in the paper that 2 factors combined may lead to the results the paper claims. "
DeleteRob, I never-ever at all said that both factors weren't at play! My initial post was ONLY about which factor was most important, and the fact that your "initial comment nor any of my followup comments have made any reference to the issue of which of the 2 factors involved are the most important" simply shows that you never understood what I was saying in the first place.
Sorry it went over my head but why did you mean as the obvious explanation? That transgenderism is tightly coupled to general pathologies in mental health?
ReplyDeleteIf I think I am something other than I really am, that is a pretty good sign I am troubled.
DeleteTo me the most important part of the report Gene linked to is Table 5, which finds that "respondents who said they had received transition- related health care or wanted to have it someday were more likely to report having attempted suicide than those who said they did not want it. This pattern was observed across all transition-related services and procedures."
ReplyDeleteOf course this can't rule out reverse causality, but it's consistent with what Gene's saying.
Don't tell Gene but the report also says "Trans men (FTM) were found to have the same prevalence of
Deletelifetime suicide attempts (46%) regardless of whether
they thought others can tell they are transgender.".
Assuming that discrimination would be less if people don't know the orientation of the individual involved - this does seem to undercut the reports own theory at least for this sub-group of transgender people.
Just curious why you:
Delete- approve a comment that shows that the report undermines its own theory with the facts it presents
- Don't approving my earlier comment that shows that you present alternative facts that actually fail to undermine that same theory.
Because I actually received comment A first, and comment B second?
Deletefair enough
Deleterob I accidentally deleted your last post. PLEASE re-post it!!!
DeleteI think it was along the lines of:
ReplyDeleteGene: Progressive stuff is crap
Rob: You're wrong.
Gene: You're an idiot.
Rob: No I'm not, and here why
Gene: See, that proves you're an idiot.
NO, rob, PLEASE send the original one again! Please.
DeleteI could pay you?