Just because the car that was stolen was left unlocked on a dark street doesn't mean the car thief shouldn't be punished. Nor that all cars left unlocked on dark streets are necessarily there because of the owner's willful negligence or indifference.
Right: who would ever claim such a thing?! (Look, we can find someone somewhere who claims almost anything: "The earth is flat!" But can you point me to anyone widely respected who has claimed that crimes should not be punished if the victim was careless about crime prevention?)
Gene, I assume this post is about rape. I think you are mischaracterizing what feminists are arguing. No one I know of has ever said that it is evil to take precautions. I expect that if you asked feminists, virtually a hundred percent of them would agree that it's a good idea to take precautions. That's not what they're objecting to. They're objecting to the people who typically claim to give advice about taking precautions, because they believe those people are operating in bad faith. They argue that the advice is not actually serving any purpose, because first of all the vast majority of women are actually already taking lots of precautions, far more precautions than most people know, so the advice-givers are not telling women anything that they don't already know. And second of all, they argue that the "advice" that the self-proclaimed advice-givers give is not actually effective advice that decreases your chance of being raped.
So they conclude that the advice-givers have a hidden message that they're trying to convey through the advice they gave. In some cases, advice about dressing provocatively, promiscuity, and drinking may really be motivated by social conservatives who oppose women doing such activities for entirely unrelated reasons. And also, advice may be carrying an implicit message of "... and if you don't follow this advice, you will be to blame." Or it could have an implicit message of "How can a man help himself if you are dressed that way?" Now in some cases people might just be giving honest advice, but feminists believe that a lot of people don't have so pure motives..
In any case, that is the line of thinking behind feminists saying things like "Don't blame the victim, teach men not to rape."
Keshav, have you actually paid any attention to this discourse before lecturing me on what it's about? Are you aware that, when some people invented a way to test for "rape drugs," feminists objected?! (http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/new-rape-prevention-product-angering-feminists)
"So they conclude that the advice-givers have a hidden message that they're trying to convey through the advice they gave"
Right: they conclude that because they are ideologically blinded nitwits. So what?
'In any case, that is the line of thinking behind feminists saying things like "Don't blame the victim, teach men not to rape." '
SMH: "Teach men not to rape": what the hell? Rape has been a crime in this country and in most countries forever. There is no "rape culture": never, ever once in growing up in the 60s as a white male was it ever even remotely suggested to me that rape was an OK thing! This culture simply does not exist! Rapists have always been seen as awful people, and in the "bad old days," if dad found out his daughter got raped, he'd head out with a shotgun and do away with the guy who did the deed.
"Teach men not to rape" is as ridiculous a piece of advice as "teach serial killers not to murder": people have ALWAYS been taught those things. The feminists advice is equivalent to: "Don't put locks on your doors or get burglar alarms: teach thieves not to steal!"
This whole thing is evil in itself: it is an attempt to deny the existence of human evil and somehow shuffle it all off to "culture," and fights against real solutions (detecting date rape drugs) and puts in their place ideological dream world solutions (teach men not to rape). "Oh, if only Hitler had been *taught* not to genocide, the whole Holocaust thing could have been avoided, without all of those nasty armies and guns needed to stop him!"
"So they conclude that the advice-givers have a hidden message that they're trying to convey through the advice they gave"
Look, Keshav, I have a wife and a daughter, as do many, many of the people giving out this "evil" advice. According to the feminists, if I tell my daughter, "If you are out on a date with a guy you just met, it is a bad idea to get passing-out drunk," it is not because I really, really don't want to see my daughter raped: no, I must have some ulterior agenda.
Why should anyone pay any attention to people who say things so stupid, except when their stupidity starts to gain a hearing and must be refuted?
"There is no 'rape culture': never, ever once in growing up in the 60s as a white male was it ever even remotely suggested to me that rape was an OK thing! This culture simply does not exist!"
Just because the car that was stolen was left unlocked on a dark street doesn't mean the car thief shouldn't be punished. Nor that all cars left unlocked on dark streets are necessarily there because of the owner's willful negligence or indifference.
ReplyDeleteRight: who would ever claim such a thing?! (Look, we can find someone somewhere who claims almost anything: "The earth is flat!" But can you point me to anyone widely respected who has claimed that crimes should not be punished if the victim was careless about crime prevention?)
DeleteClose, but obviously not quite the same:
Deletehttps://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1915&dat=19671002&id=oPooAAAAIBAJ&sjid=q3IFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6578,254017&hl=en
Gene, I assume this post is about rape. I think you are mischaracterizing what feminists are arguing. No one I know of has ever said that it is evil to take precautions. I expect that if you asked feminists, virtually a hundred percent of them would agree that it's a good idea to take precautions. That's not what they're objecting to. They're objecting to the people who typically claim to give advice about taking precautions, because they believe those people are operating in bad faith. They argue that the advice is not actually serving any purpose, because first of all the vast majority of women are actually already taking lots of precautions, far more precautions than most people know, so the advice-givers are not telling women anything that they don't already know. And second of all, they argue that the "advice" that the self-proclaimed advice-givers give is not actually effective advice that decreases your chance of being raped.
ReplyDeleteSo they conclude that the advice-givers have a hidden message that they're trying to convey through the advice they gave. In some cases, advice about dressing provocatively, promiscuity, and drinking may really be motivated by social conservatives who oppose women doing such activities for entirely unrelated reasons. And also, advice may be carrying an implicit message of "... and if you don't follow this advice, you will be to blame." Or it could have an implicit message of "How can a man help himself if you are dressed that way?" Now in some cases people might just be giving honest advice, but feminists believe that a lot of people don't have so pure motives..
In any case, that is the line of thinking behind feminists saying things like "Don't blame the victim, teach men not to rape."
Keshav, have you actually paid any attention to this discourse before lecturing me on what it's about? Are you aware that, when some people invented a way to test for "rape drugs," feminists objected?! (http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/new-rape-prevention-product-angering-feminists)
Delete"So they conclude that the advice-givers have a hidden message that they're trying to convey through the advice they gave"
Right: they conclude that because they are ideologically blinded nitwits. So what?
'In any case, that is the line of thinking behind feminists saying things like "Don't blame the victim, teach men not to rape." '
SMH: "Teach men not to rape": what the hell? Rape has been a crime in this country and in most countries forever. There is no "rape culture": never, ever once in growing up in the 60s as a white male was it ever even remotely suggested to me that rape was an OK thing! This culture simply does not exist! Rapists have always been seen as awful people, and in the "bad old days," if dad found out his daughter got raped, he'd head out with a shotgun and do away with the guy who did the deed.
"Teach men not to rape" is as ridiculous a piece of advice as "teach serial killers not to murder": people have ALWAYS been taught those things. The feminists advice is equivalent to: "Don't put locks on your doors or get burglar alarms: teach thieves not to steal!"
This whole thing is evil in itself: it is an attempt to deny the existence of human evil and somehow shuffle it all off to "culture," and fights against real solutions (detecting date rape drugs) and puts in their place ideological dream world solutions (teach men not to rape). "Oh, if only Hitler had been *taught* not to genocide, the whole Holocaust thing could have been avoided, without all of those nasty armies and guns needed to stop him!"
"So they conclude that the advice-givers have a hidden message that they're trying to convey through the advice they gave"
DeleteLook, Keshav, I have a wife and a daughter, as do many, many of the people giving out this "evil" advice. According to the feminists, if I tell my daughter, "If you are out on a date with a guy you just met, it is a bad idea to get passing-out drunk," it is not because I really, really don't want to see my daughter raped: no, I must have some ulterior agenda.
Why should anyone pay any attention to people who say things so stupid, except when their stupidity starts to gain a hearing and must be refuted?
By the way, I've detected a new phenomenon here: Keshavsplaining!
Delete"There is no 'rape culture': never, ever once in growing up in the 60s as a white male was it ever even remotely suggested to me that rape was an OK thing! This culture simply does not exist!"
DeleteWell…
Yes, Samson, there are, for instance, people who think sex with 6-year olds is OK. That doesn't mean we live in a "pedophilia culture"!
DeleteI see your point.
Delete