I decided to move some discussion from this post up to the top level here.
Specifically, Watoosh wrote: "Well, if violence is defined as initiation of force (which, of course, presupposes certain property rights), then I think Rockwell is correct..."
Well, if we define cats as elephants, then many people keep elephants in their house. More seriously, firstly, violence is not usually defined that way. It's defined as, you know, violence, so that, say, someone may respond violently or non-violently to someone who aggresses against them. Otherwise, it would make no sense to say, for instance, "He punched me, but I did not stoop to violence in response."
And, secondly, the libertarian usage of "initiation of force" is very offbeat. If I wander onto someone's meadow, most people would not say I had "initiated force" -- I mean, sure, I used "force" against the earth to push off walking, but that's not force directed against the property owner! -- and when the owner shoots me, they would say he had initiated force. The person desperately clinging for his life to the balcony in Block's example (in the first post linked to above) has not "initiated force" against the balcony owner, and the balcony owner, in prying the accident victim's fingers from his railing, is initiating force.
If you have to defend your ideology with word games like this, you might want to consider why.
Also, Bob Murphy wrote: "Gene, just for fairness and accuracy, of the 5 quotes you posted thinking they show how libertarianism condones violence, actually 2 or 3 of them show when violence may not be used."
I'm going to guess that one of the "non-violent" examples Murphy is pointing to is Rothbard's declaration that parents must be legally permitted to "allow" their child to die of starvation. (If I've got this wrong, Bob, please let me know -- but I couldn't imagine what three you could be referring to if this wasn't one of them!) Well, as Silas would so politely put it, "Bzzt. Fail."
First of all, notice how passive the parents are in Rothbard's text: they are "allowing" the child to die. As if, you know, it was asking, and they said, "Sure, if you don't want to eat, fine with us!" No, what the parents are doing is starving the child to death. It is an active assault on the welfare of the child, just as surely as if, like Solomon proposed, they sliced it in half. In fact, slicing it in half would be a lot more merciful than slowly, agonizingly starving it. I'm fine with not legally forcing parents to feed their child, because we really don't want children raised under such conditions, if possible. But they sure as heck have to bring it to someone who will feed it if they won't, such as an orphanage or child services. And someone (child services, grandma, whoever) who comes to rescue the poor infant is not "aggressing" against these monsters if they enter the house without their permission: they are rescuing a victim of aggression!
By the way, the only really non-violent libertarian of whom I am aware is Bob. (Libertarians: I'm not condemning you in say this, just trying to clean up your language. I myself, like you, believe violence is called for in certain situations.) But I'm not sure it's correct to call Bob a libertarian! The thing is, because he's a pacifist, as I see it, "property rights," in his hands, turn into "property suggestions":
"Get out of my house!"
"No."
"Oh... OK."
Specifically, Watoosh wrote: "Well, if violence is defined as initiation of force (which, of course, presupposes certain property rights), then I think Rockwell is correct..."
Well, if we define cats as elephants, then many people keep elephants in their house. More seriously, firstly, violence is not usually defined that way. It's defined as, you know, violence, so that, say, someone may respond violently or non-violently to someone who aggresses against them. Otherwise, it would make no sense to say, for instance, "He punched me, but I did not stoop to violence in response."
And, secondly, the libertarian usage of "initiation of force" is very offbeat. If I wander onto someone's meadow, most people would not say I had "initiated force" -- I mean, sure, I used "force" against the earth to push off walking, but that's not force directed against the property owner! -- and when the owner shoots me, they would say he had initiated force. The person desperately clinging for his life to the balcony in Block's example (in the first post linked to above) has not "initiated force" against the balcony owner, and the balcony owner, in prying the accident victim's fingers from his railing, is initiating force.
If you have to defend your ideology with word games like this, you might want to consider why.
Also, Bob Murphy wrote: "Gene, just for fairness and accuracy, of the 5 quotes you posted thinking they show how libertarianism condones violence, actually 2 or 3 of them show when violence may not be used."
I'm going to guess that one of the "non-violent" examples Murphy is pointing to is Rothbard's declaration that parents must be legally permitted to "allow" their child to die of starvation. (If I've got this wrong, Bob, please let me know -- but I couldn't imagine what three you could be referring to if this wasn't one of them!) Well, as Silas would so politely put it, "Bzzt. Fail."
First of all, notice how passive the parents are in Rothbard's text: they are "allowing" the child to die. As if, you know, it was asking, and they said, "Sure, if you don't want to eat, fine with us!" No, what the parents are doing is starving the child to death. It is an active assault on the welfare of the child, just as surely as if, like Solomon proposed, they sliced it in half. In fact, slicing it in half would be a lot more merciful than slowly, agonizingly starving it. I'm fine with not legally forcing parents to feed their child, because we really don't want children raised under such conditions, if possible. But they sure as heck have to bring it to someone who will feed it if they won't, such as an orphanage or child services. And someone (child services, grandma, whoever) who comes to rescue the poor infant is not "aggressing" against these monsters if they enter the house without their permission: they are rescuing a victim of aggression!
By the way, the only really non-violent libertarian of whom I am aware is Bob. (Libertarians: I'm not condemning you in say this, just trying to clean up your language. I myself, like you, believe violence is called for in certain situations.) But I'm not sure it's correct to call Bob a libertarian! The thing is, because he's a pacifist, as I see it, "property rights," in his hands, turn into "property suggestions":
"Get out of my house!"
"No."
"Oh... OK."










